 SGD 7-14-1997
Greetings Sports Gamers!
My agenda for this discussion group has always been to share
ideas about sports games--design theories and practices, variant
rules, expansion ideas, what games are available and where to
obtain them. This list a non-commercial venture, and a few
people have signed on with the understanding that they would not
receive unwanted solicitations. That will not happen if I can
avoid it.
In past weeks there has been some buying and selling of sports
games by individuals and also a couple of dealers who have
offered specific titles in response to inqueries. I number
myself among those who have benefitted from the contact,
obtaining some Lambourne track & field games, and various
baseball, football and basketball games from members of the list.
A couple of people have expressed interest in offering games for
trade, or looking for titles they want. The newsgroup
rec.games.board.marketplace exists but I think it might be useful
to focus on the interests of our group.
I would like feedback from the membership regarding this idea:
-If you are interested in BUYING, SELLING, OR TRADING
SPORTS
GAMES, send me a list and I'll include it in the next digest
along with your email address.
-In keeping with the purpose of this group, limit
your list
to SPORTS GAMES ONLY. But any sports game is okay.
-NO AUCTIONS. Only straight buy, sell or trade offers.
The
newsgroup is available for auctions, and I have no intention of
competing with it.
-Keep the list as concise as possible (title, year,
company,
brief condition, price).
I do not want this discussion group to become simply a trading
post for sports games, but I wouldn't mind if game wants or for
sale ads were incorporated into the dialogue. I would appreciate
your opnions on this topic because I do not wish to alienate
anyone.
Regards,
Jim Gordon
jgordon@library.berkeley.edu
******************************************************
CURRENT PROJECTS
[This a list of development projects and variant
rules which
have been discussed. I maintain a separate email sublist for
Decathlon and Solitaire Statis Pro Football. If you want more details,
just ask.--JCG]
-Decathlon expansion with additional decathletes
-Decathlon variant rules for timing and distances
-Solitaire Statis Pro Football system
-Paydirt/Bowl Bound play and defense variants
-List of active tabletop sports game companies and products
available
-House Rules for Statis Pro Baseball
-Statis Pro Basketball strategy variant
********************************************************
From: Jim Furtado
Subject: Do you have a web page about the Sports Gaming Digest?
Jim,
Do you have a web page describing your mail list? If so, could you give
me the address so that I could place a link on my site? If not, I'd be
happy to create a page on my site.
Just from reading my first e-mail message, I can already tell that this
list will contain a wealth of information. Have you thought about making
a archive of the more interesting messages? If you would be interested
in setting something up, I'd be happy to supply the space.
Let me know.
Jim Furtado
Visit the Baseball Think Factory at
http://www.ici.net/customers/sportim/
[Jim Furtado has graciously offered to lend a hand
in developing a webpage for this
discussion grpuip, something which is beyond my abilities but well within
my desires.
***********************************************************
From: thomm1@ix.netcom.com
Jim,
Faceoff Hockey's website is http://land-sports.com/
Great game for hard-core simulation. I play Strat-Hockey for a fun,
playable game; Faceoff when it's time to get "detail-serious".
Keep up the great work....really enjoy the newsletter.
Thomas
***************************************************************
From: Randy Cox
I just wanted to mention one more thing about the five-year average idea
before moving on
to the topic you brought up last time. I believe we once checked out many
of the All-Time
All-Star SI charts to research the five-year average notion. It is obvious
that the
charts do not represent the entire career of the players (check out Honus
Wagner if you
don't believe it--he didn't average some 90+ on-base combinations through
out his career,
though he did hit .400 over a five year span).
[I would like to hear more about how you deciphered
the player cards to do this
research. How did you factor in the percentage of play results determined
from the pitchers'
cards as opposed to the batters'? Did you work out formulae for the player
cards?--JCG]
You said you wanted to hear about other sports board games (I don't include
computer games
because I don't enjoy them). And much like Rob Gallamore's list, I'll state
the ones I've
played by category. Even though you're looking for the 'non revenue' sports,
I will
mention the big three in passing. But one thing I noticed while typing this
list is that
the 'big three' sports offer many simulations while the 'lesser' sports tabletop
games are
more games than simulations. I guess that some sports are tougher to convert
to dry
numbers and charts.
Baseball: SI is tops, but I really enjoyed Sherco-II (though I wish they'd
corrected the
charts sooner). We also played a game that required throwing three normal
six-sided dice
and reading the result as a three digit number (e.g. 245). Anyone remember
this game?
Football: Again, I like SI much more than any of the others. The others (like
Strat)
require far too much work to be enjoyable. The closest competition comes
from AH's
Football Strategy. But does anyone else remember a 'Foto-Electric' football
game which
consisted of several large play cards (offense and defense) where you lay
the cards on top
of a light board, turn on a bulb, and figure out where the diagram of the
offensive play
intersects with one of the 11 defensive X's?
Basketball: I'm still searching for a good tabletop game. My favorite was
a card-based
system (like Statis-Pro baseball) which I believe was called 'Real Time'
basketball. I
played it back in 78 or 79 and it had charts for most of the college teams
of the day.
Track/Field: Other than SI's Decathlon/Track Meet, the only others I've looked
into were
1500 Gold (which looks a little tedious), Decapeg (currently on the market
by Strunk
Games) which seems more like Yahtzee than a sports game, and Decathlon the
card game
which seems a might week. I've heard great things about Metric Mile, but
haven't played it.
Soccer: I've not played Subueto, but I have played World Cup Tournament Football
by
Australian Design Group and enjoy it a lot. I've posted something about this
elsewhere.
Tennis: Pro Tennis by AH simulates tennis, but it sure is tedious. I do have
an old card
game (maybe by Parker Bros or Western) which looks ok, but it's only a card
game and
doesn't have individual charts.
Golf: APBA attempted a golf game, but it came up way short. The 'flight'
of the ball
first went towards the center of the fairway, then took a 90-degree turn
towards the hole.
It came up with normal scores and it was really tough to beat Nicklaus, but
it wasn't very
exciting. Of course Handicap Golf was fun, but the generic charts (handicap
x-y, duffer,
etc) took away too much flavor. Ultimate Golf is horrible, as is the TPC
Sawgrass
boardgame. Gambler's Golf is nifty in that it addresses the gambling on each
hole element
of the casual game, but again it isn't a professional simulation. Haven't
tried Thinking
Man's Golf yet, though I've owned it for years. Probably my favorite is
Golf: the Perfect
Game (currently available) which is a card game (choose from one of the three
cards in
your hand, even if none are perfect) and hack away. Screw up and put money
in the kitty.
Do well and grab the money. Best of all, it comes with a plastic 'cup' so
that you can
pace off the putts and stroke them with your favorite putter.
Horse Racing: I collect these almost as avidly as I collect election games.
The best is
still Win, Place, and Show in that it's a game as well as a simulation (they
came out with
many variants covering all the famous horses of days gone by). Some Italian
sounding name
(Vivaldi Downs, maybe) was horrid to read, much less play. And Kentucky Derby
was too
much like a kids game. I like the looks of Stretch Call, but it is only a
betting game
and there is no jockey strategy.
Dog Racing: Greyhounds by Mattel (in Europe) is a good game for strategic
card play as
well as intuitive betting.
Auto Racing: The best is still Daytona 500. The sisters of this system (Formel
Eins, Top
Race, and the wretched Detroit/Cleveland Grand Prix) are shadows of Daytona.
Daytona is
exciting, the others have the disgusting attribute of blocking the road for
all the other
players--not very simulating or stimulating. USAC Auto Racing would take
hours to play.
Forumla DE by Ludodiliere (now not printed) is great for racing the GP circuit
in a
reasonable timeframe. But even better for that would be the DTM games from
Germany
(Nuremburg and Hockenheim). They are beautifully crafted and fun games as
well (with the
timed moves [20 seconds is good] you can really simulate the bonehead moves
that drivers
must make under pressure). I'm no longer very happy with Speed Circuit as
it is a bit too
dry (though with timed moves, it would improve many fold). Then there's Carabonde,
which
is a big track where you flick wooden discs around in succession without
knocking them off
the 'board.' Great fun, but not a real sports game.
Chariot Racing: AH's Circus Maximus is a classic. Nuff said.
Sedan racing: Gallopp Royal is a humerous race game from Germany and is not
for the
serious sports fan, but is for the avid gamer.
Wrestling: Surely not a sport, but there are a couple of games I have on
the subject. Of
course, there's AH's Wrasslin' which is mildly interesting for an hour or
so. Then
there's Big Time Wrestling In a Can which more closely mimics WWF wrestling,
but
otherwise is much like Avalon Hill's game.
Bowling: Other than the generics like Bowl-and-Score and Skittle Bowl, the
only simulation
I know of came from APBA and did include charts for the greats of the time
(late 70's?).
I played it a couple of times to deem it a game which virtually plays itself.
You roll
and record the score. Nothing more.
Hockey: who cares.
Hunting: Avalon Hill's Yellowstone is actually a decent game, but not really
sports.
More of a simulation of Marlin Perkin's Wild Kingdom. I have a couple of
other games on
this 'sport' but since shooting animals from a distance is a coward's sport,
I won't
discuss them.
That's more than enough for now. Edit this however you like to make it fit.
Thanks,
Randy
*************************************************************
From: "Hennie van der Salm"
After receiving your Digest of 7/7 I want to add some information.
The National Pro Hockey game is/was made by a company named:
Sports Action Game Co. Ltd.
Box 8418, Stn. F
Edmonton, Alberta
T6H 4W5
Canada
I don't know of this company still exists. When I bought the game
(March 1996) the 1987/88 Player card where included, but a postcard
was included on which one could order some other player cards (from
earlier seasons).
Talking about Tennis games. I recall seeing an add about a Tennis
game by TAHGC in the years 1983-1985. However I can never find the
game (and the add ;-) so my question is: Does TAHGC ever produced a
Tennis game?
Henni
***********************************************************
From: McGartlin@prodigy.com (MR MICHAEL J GARTON)
Yee Ha, let's talk motorsports:
The old stand by Speed Circuit by AH is probably
the oldest and
most played game out there.
Multiple tracks and varying car setups give old reliable the
'statistical' backbone at the generic level.
Cars are rate for acceleration, top speed, braking and wear points.
On to USAC Auto Racing by AH this game follows the 'big 3' sports
systems with statistics for drivers so that the outcomes follow
closely to what really happened. Problem is, most of the time the
randomness is not strong enough to allow variety. I think 4-5 years
of stat cards are around (out of print) look for it used.
Formule De - (French import) board game of F1 racing and looks like
Speed Circuit, but more luck involved. Instead of moving a set
number of spaces, a die is rolled (20 sider) to determine movement
crossed with a chart by gear (6 gears). Turns are handled by
requiring each driver to end its movement a set number of times
within the turn, a 3 stop turn usually will result in droppingto 2-
3rd gear to insure that you don't overshoot movement. Out of print,
but an improved version should/will be out via Eurogames in France
and Chessex should be distributing it so it hopefully will be
available in most hooby shops.
Stock Car Championship Racing Card Game - takes the driver vs driver
approach by taking away the board and lining cars up nose to tail to
represent the lead draft. A track deck monitors laps completed and
track events (slow traffic, yellow flags, etc.) Each player from
identical driver decks play actions to passs one another to move up
to the lead. Meanwhile, drivers respond by blocking and challenging
those attempts. This is a player vs player game rather than a driver
vs track system. Best applied to stock cars since oval racing is
what is done rather than the complex road courses where the driver vs
the track does come in to play.
Other racing games out there:
Mayfairs (now ICE's) Detroit/Cleveland GP - follows
the Daytona
500/Formel Eins system
Le Mans - old AH game speed circuit-like except
cars are rated.
(out of print)
Formula One by PB (from the 60's out of print
Demoltion Derby (well not quite a race game) by
Mayfair (out of
print)
and plenty more.
Let's start discussion. What makes a race game good and how should
it be presented board or card or both?
Personally, Stock Car Racing - card based with the driver vs driver
aspect represent the lead draft
Formula One - track-based, but a heavy concentration
on R&D, practice and Qualifying. It is so hard to pass on some F1
tracks that the pole position is extremely important.
Mike G
McGartlin Motorsport Design
P.S. The Stock Car game is our product, so this is a little bit of
an advertisement. hopefully more discussion.
MG
************************************************************
From: "Robert C. Walker"
To add some to Jim asking for comments about hockey games...I'd like to
hear what others think about the various hockey games on the market...
Specifically, how do they play solitaire? I've just recently started SOM
Hockey, my first hockey tabletop game, and the basic & advanced versions
look great for solitaire. Think the super-advanced version may not work
so good for solitaire, tho it makes it a great face-to-face game.
Does anyone use some of the rules for super advanced while maintaining
most of the advanced rules?
How long does it take to play a game of the various companies (SOM, APBA,
Face-Off, etc)?
And, I'm still looking for info on ordering, etc for Face-Off hockey.
You'd think there'd be lots of simulation hockey games in Canada, but I
live across the border from Windsor (Detroit) and don't seem to find many.
Can anybody suggest a good game store in Toronto as I'll be there in a
couple of months.
Bob Walker
*****************************************************
From: "Richard Guenther (128983)"
I have something I'd perhaps like some of the others (those that like
boxing games) to see (include it in your digest if you want):
I'm currently trying to make the most out of Title Bout (TB), as it seems
right now that simulation boxing is even better than the real thing (nice
job, Tyson...). I'm using the basic (1979) rules, with some of the
optional rules, and the all-time great heavyweights cards (along with a
few newer boxers thrown in too). I picked 10 at random from the big pile,
and they are my current top 10 (I had a small tournament to determine the
champion, whom I rate at #1, and it's Joe Frazier). Then I made a bunch
of random charts to determine who fights whom in the top 10 each month. I
us TB to play out all the title bouts, but I have a simple table to
determine the winner of the non-title bouts (ie. those that don't include
the champ, as the champ always puts the belt on the line). I also have
tables that cause fighters to improve/decline at random, although losses
always tend to harm them. I've made a simple method to alter the cards a
little for this.
This may not be all that realistic, but it's fun.
Has anyone else
have any similar ideas they've used with TB. Also, someone once
recommended Lambourne Games' RETURN OF HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMP. Could that
person (or anyone) give me more details about the game? Specifically, I'd
like to know the games long-term reply value, and the details of
individual fights. I just want details, I guess :-)
Thanks,
Richard
*********************************************************
From: wgkii@dcn.davis.ca.us (William Kay)
Hey Jim!
Here are some responses to your recent Sports Game Digest.
After reading his posts to Strat-Misc., I definitely would like to hear more
about (... ok ... play...) Keith Avallone's Football Game.
Face-off Hockey:
Both a board and computer game.
Manufacturer: Land-Sports
Web Address: http://land-sports.com/
Sports Action Game Co. made both:
- Sports Action Canadian Pro Football
[Do you have the publisher's
name/address handy?--JCG]
- National Pro Hockey
[Same question. Publisher?--JCG]
This game came highly recommended and is supposed to have been better than
Face-off. However, I was told the company is no more -- apparently a problem
with a
distributor.
One request from my end...are there any other sports gaming magazines for
different games, such as for APBA, that are similar to STRAT FAN?
APBA:
APBA Journal
PO Box 5405
South San Francisco, CA 94083
Subscriptions are $30/year
Dynasty League:
I believe they send out a newsletter (see http://www.designdepot.com/)
Regards,
Bill
PS: I have several sets of SOM and APBA cards (and a few Statis Pro
Games/Card Sets) that I would like to trade for seasons/sets that I don't
have or for other sports games. (Most are from the 70's, 80's and 90's).
William Kay
wgkii@dcn.davis.ca.us
************************************************************
From: Rob Gallamore
>- Faceoff Hockey (best hockey simulation , but Strat more fun to play)
> [Who makes this game?--JCG]
Land-Sports Inc. Their web page is located at
www.land-sports.com
>- Pursue the Pennant Baseball
>- Dynasty League Baseball
>- Sports Action Canadian Pro Football
> [Do you have the publisher's name/address handy?--JCG]
LIke National Pro Hockey they no longer are in business.
>
>Basketball: Stratomatic Computer basketball
>Football: Lance Haffner's 3 in 1 football. You get a ton of teams and
great
>game for a text version.
>
> [I would like to hear more details about Lance Haffner's games. How
do
>they play? What are the key features? What is unique about them? Thanks.--
>JCG]
Lance Haffner's games best features are that they come with a wealth of past
teams.
But unfortunately I found that the game was ok , but the extra stat programs
had many bugs and would never run smoothly.The hockey game was horrible.
Players were constantly being rated out of position so I gave up on it.
Their best game was the football game. It came with a vast amount of teams
and was a terrific text simulation.
Rob Gallamore
rgallamo@uniserve.com
Sports Gamer Web Page: http://users.uniserve.com/~rgallamo/welcome.htm
*******************************************************
From: Dave Menard - SunExpress IR
Hi...please count me in on your sports gaming mail list.
I've been playing sports games since I was 10. Mostly baseball.
Started with APBA board game, on to computer baseball and Baseball for
Windows. Past 5 years have been playing mostly PtP/Diamond Mind.
Have also played various hockey, football and basketball simulations.
Thanks,
Dave
*********************************************************
From: Ron Bates
Sign me up! Played sports games since I was a boy, in the early
50's. Didn't discover APBA until 1980, but have played it ever
since. Do replays, am in a local FTF Basic baseball league and
am in 4 computer leagues. 2 in the summer and 2 in the winter!
Mainly like baseball sports games. Football and basketball seem to
take too long. Was in a football league once, but we withered away
because we were having to play the 1st half one night and the 2nd
half another night. If you were being blown out in the 1st half,
you were reluctant to continue the game! Never been in a basketball
league, but board games take forever! Have played the APBA Golf
board game occaisionally and like it, but again, any tournament or
the like take forever.
Thank you for your support.
Ron Bates
***********************************************************
From: ardlngr@juno.com (Albert C Riedlinger)
>Tell me about your background with sports games.
started way back with various baseball board games .. Negamco? then
probably some others that I forget (not APBA, not BLM, no Strato). Then
got Pursue the Pennant. I loved that game, but the problem with board
games was that I wanted to keep stats, and that meant scoresheets and
manual updates.
then computer games started happening. I can't remember the names, but I
played some decent ones on my old Commodore-64. When I finally got an IBM
clone, I was able to get the computer version of Pursue the Pennant (1987
season.) I still use Diamond Mind (one of the descendants of PTP) and
enjoy tht one the most. I use that one to run experimental type replays
... different combos of players, put people in different parks, etc...
I am also involved in a face-to-face Strat-O league with 8 other guys
from work. I don't like the game as much as DMB, but that's what the
league uses and I enjoy being in the league.
Lance Haffner's baseball game isn't bad and has the advantage of giving
you a lot of teams and having just about every season available.
I've dabbled in other sports and currenlty am comissioner of an APBA
Hockey League. Lance Haffner's game was tried first, but I soon forgot
about it.
> What are your interests?
I assume you mean other than sports games ... reading, playing softball
(still play a decent 3B at 51), Scandinavian culture...
> Which games do you like?
Diamond Mind Baseball, APBA Hockey (it could be better, but it's the best
on the market.) Total Baseball is sort of cool, graphically like Tony
LaRussa, but with all the major leagues on CD and my old favorite
announcer as a kid, Curt Gowdy ... The old stadiums are a nice touch.
> Which games do you not like?
Lance Haffner Hockey - APBA Baeball - it's not a bad game per se, but
there are so many add-ons that cost addt'l money, I don't want to get to
far. I have played the game, but addmitedly haven't taken any time to get
to know it well. The $$ is a turn-off.
I really appreciate, having played the old way, the many more things one
can do with a computerized version of a game. Have all the fun and let
the computer do all the number crunching ..that is if the program works
OK.
So much for my intentions to send you a brief note.....
**************************************************
END OF DIGEST 7-14-97
|
|